《礼物》 奥間 勝也さんは（导演）
《梭雷的孩子们》奥谷洋一郎 （导演）
基于主题的构想
——对话《礼物》和《梭雷的孩子们》的导演
Q: 两位导演都纪录了生活在城市阴暗下的人们,。那些生活在《礼物》中的冲绳岛公园以及《梭雷的孩子们》中多摩川河河岸的人们，最终都被强制要求搬到其他地方去住。是什么让你拿起摄像机，去纪录这一切？
奥間 勝也さんは (OK): 一开始我写了份发生在没有血缘关系的“亲人”之间的剧本，把洋介这个孩子作为故事的中心。我出生于冲绳岛，但是我不敢苟同那些认为这片大地上只有亲人之间才会有爱的观点以及由此产生的一些事情。洋介失去了他的血缘亲人，而后遇到了一个被大家认为是“社会上的陌生人”或是“局外人”这样的一个无家可归的男人。通过关注洋介的故事，我希望能打破那些陈旧的观念。这也是为何影片的最后，我们会看到“坟墓”，这是一个概念，代表着一个家庭，羁绊，这十分重要。然而，因为像Kame-chan和他的朋友里基这些没有出现在剧本中的角色太过鼓舞人心，所以我必须想办法把他们加到影片中，所以影片的结构会稍稍有些改变。
奥谷洋一郎(OY): 就我个人而言，我本想从一只流浪狗的角度讲述东京的故事，但正打算这么做的时候，我发现了住在多摩川河河岸的高岛先生，他还有只宠物狗。当我们拍摄他讲话时，我注意到，他有点误导人的讲话方式正是他塑造自己人物形象的一个绝佳方式。所以，我决定根据他写一个故事。我把编剧时创造角色的过程称为“指导”，但是我想“引导”高岛先生，让他拥有“船的精神”，一种超现实的存在。《礼物》中的Kame-chan，我觉得通过他的画和他的东西就自然而然得塑造出了他的角色形象，奥間先生您有刻意为Kame-chan打造这一些吗？
OK: 《礼物》已经有了一份完成的剧本，所以我根据Kame-chan这个角色所发生的变化进行拍摄。比如说，当Kame-chan 在公园画画时，路人，包括那些游客，会跑上来和他对话。然后突然之间，他身后的“城市”变成了电影的一部分。这让我想到，我应该再加入一些其他的元素，就像幕后和采访素材这些在剧本中无法体现的东西。所以，这就像我们在拍摄的时候不断修改着剧本。而相反的，《梭雷的孩子们》是直接纪录那些现有的东西是吧?
OY:我从来没有提前写完过一份剧本，如果我提前去设计好他的思想，他所要说的话，那么高岛先生就像是“被”发表意见一样，而这样一来我也得不到我想要的东西了。这也是为何这部电影不能用这种方式去定义。我们要用相机去纪录他所说的每一句话。我坐在他面前，倾听他的所思所想，但是有时候他的所言也不能够明确得体现他本人的个性。把这些意味不明的话保留下来，同时通过剪辑增强影片给人的希望感，我希望看到多元的融合。
OK: 在《礼物》中, 里基也许是通过讲述故事，来支撑起虚构部分的这么一个角色，一如高岛先生说的那些话。在影片中，它就像纪录片的一部分，但他的讲话方式，看上去就像剧本写好了一样。我没有拍摄那一幕，我在后期剪辑的时候才第一次看到它，虽然他很怪，但是我想说，植根于演讲而创造出来的故事，真的很迷人。
(整理：岩井信行)
采访: 岩井信行，市川えり/ 翻译: 賢治グリーン
摄影: 加藤孝信/ 摄像: 加藤孝信/ 2011-09-18 于东京
Gift Okuma Katsuya (Director)
Children of Soleil Okutani Yoichiro (Director)
Fiction which Dwells on the Subject
—Speaking with the directors of Gift and Children of Soleil
Q: Both works document those who lived in the dark sides of cities, the Okinawa park of in Gift and the Tamagawa estuary in Children of Soleil, who were forcefully sent to live somewhere else. What motivated you to capture them on camera?
Okuma Katsuya (OK): Initially I had written a script about non-blood kinship, centering on Yosuke as a child. I was born in Okinawa, but I did not agree with the emphasis that this land put on blood relatives, and the special bonds that it created. So, by focusing on Yosuke, who lost his blood-relative grandfather and meets a homeless man who in sorts is a “social stranger or outsider,” I thought would help break that blood-related emphasis. That is the reason why the “grave” that is seen at the end of the movie, which is a place that represents a family’s inheritance, is so important. However, because Kame-chan and his friend Rickey, who weren’t in the script, were so inspiring, I had to figure out a way to include them into the film, thus changing the sort of configuration of the film.
Okutani Yoichiro (OY): In my case, I was thinking about telling the story of Tokyo through a stray dog’s perspective, but in doing so I found a man named Mr. Takashima who lived on a boat in Tamagawa who had a pet dog. While filming him as he talked to me, I noticed that his somewhat deceitful way of speech was his way of characterizing himself. So, I decided to base a fictional story on him. I call creating a character in the editing process “directing” but I wanted to “direct” Mr. Takashima as a “spirit of the boat,” a sort of surreal existence. Kame-chan in Gift, I felt was creating his own character through his composition of drawings and objects, but did you (Mr. Okuma) “direct” this kind of thing for Kame-chan?
OK: Gift already had a script written so I shot it considering the changes seen in Kame-chan. For example, when Kame-chan is drawing at a park, people, including tourists came up to talk to him. Then suddenly, the “city” behind him became part of the film. It made me think that I wanted to include elements, like behind the scenes and interview footage that weren’t in the script. So, it is as if things were rewritten during shooting. On the contrary, Children of Soleil was shot by capturing the objects straight-forward right?
OY: I don’t ever write a script in advance. If I had tried to get a certain pinpoint thought out of him, Mr. Takashima would just have pontificated, and I would not have been able to get out what I wanted to. That is why the film is stylized in such a way; capturing him as he talked to me. I am definitely sitting in front of him but it is unclear who he is exactly is addressing with his words. Leaving this floating feeling of his words in, while at the same time expanding the film’s possibility through editing was how this all came together.
OK: In Gift, Rickey may be the one who is supporting the fictional aspects by narrating something, much like Mr. Takashima’s words. In the film it was like the documentary part, but his flowing way of speech, made it look as if it were scripted. I did not shoot that scene myself and saw it for the first time during the editing process, but these sorts of fishiness, or I suppose the fiction that can be created from speech is truly fascinating.
(Compiled by Iwai Nobuyuki)
Interviewers: Iwai Nobuyuki, Ichikawa Eri / Translator: Kenji Green
Photography: Kato Takanobu / Video: Kato Takanobu / 2011-09-18 in Tokyo
